Talk:Voltairine de Cleyre

Fact Check

A recent edit to the article states: "In 1909, together with Lucy Parsons, she renounced anarchism and joined the Communist Party of America."

Yet the Lucy Parsons article states that Parsons joined in 1939. What is the source for this edit?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.168.133 (talk) 08:43, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Upon further research it would appear to be Bob Black who added this sentence to this article, and the one on Lucy Parsons. Given the history of this individual with regards to the anarchist movement, the current conflict between two statements inserted by one individual, and the lack of any evidence provided to support it thus far, I'm going to remove it for now. I'm also adding a fact check request to the Lucy Parsons page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.168.133 (talk) 02:11, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Voltairine de Cleyre/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Grnrchst (talk · contribs) 09:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Edwininlondon (talk · contribs) 15:36, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I'd be happy to review this in the next few days. I may make the odd minor edit in the process. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:36, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for taking this on! I look forward to your review :) --Grnrchst (talk) 17:08, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have to deliver bad news, but the article simply is too long, as per WP:TOOBIG. It should be trimmed down by 25-30%. This may not be an easy task, but I'm afraid this has to be done. I'm happy to keep the review open, if you like, giving you a chance to work on this in the next few weeks. The only thing I want to add at this stage is that most of the items in Other sources are not used at all in the article. It is expected that every source listed is actually used. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC) Edwininlondon (talk) 09:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I figured I'd have to cut down on this, so I'll be sure to get to trimming it soon. As for the "other sources", those were previously cited in an earlier version of the article; I was supposed to move them to a further reading section, but I guess I forgot to do that. It's rectified now.

I'll try trimming it down over the coming days. If you're willing and able, some pointers for where to start would help me a lot at figuring out what kind of things to cut. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I am not at all familiar with the topic, so it's tricky for me to judge what should be trimmed. It seems to me each of the sections are worth keeping. I'd go through each section and ask myself: What is essential? How can I say the same with fewer words. Childhood section probably is the easiest to cut down on. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Doing that now, cutting all the superfluous details. Grnrchst (talk) 16:00, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Wee update, sorry for the delay. I've so far managed to trim 10% of the article away; I'm hoping I'll be able to get it down further over the next few days. I'll probably have to do another pass in order to get the word count below 10,000, but this first pass has already led to the prose being tighter, so I'm happy to do it. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Just finished my first pass and I've gotten it down 17.5%. I'll give it another pass soon and see how much more I can trim. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:24, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@Edwininlondon: Hey there! Apologies for taking so long to see to this, my hands have been full. I have finished my second pass and successfully trimmed the article by more than 25%, bringing it down to less than 10,000 words. I think this has helped a lot to keep to the most essential information. Let me know if there's anything else to do and how to proceed further with this review. :) Grnrchst (talk) 14:32, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

@Grnrchst: Great job! It looks more like an article now and less like a biography book. I will start reviewing the body of the article. Could you meanwhile try to trim the lead? Word count is 522 while WP:TOOBIG mentions 400 for the lead and "usually be no longer than four paragraphs". Edwininlondon (talk) 06:48, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Lead:

• Voltairine de Cleyre (November 17, 1866 – June 20, 1912) --> we have to deal with the name issue as per MOS:NEE. See as an example FA Barbara Bush
  • Done. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• as an American anarchist and feminist writer and public speaker --> would "anarchist, feminist writer and public speaker" not be better?
  • Done. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• rationalist publications --> nationalist publications
  • No. It's not a typo. Linked for clarification. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• able to fully recover, but was able --> duplication of able
  • Fixed. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• towards the end of the 1900s --> that's around 1995
  • No. The 1900s are a decade, not a century. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Body

• Voltairine de Cleyre was born on November 17, 1866, in Leslie, Michigan.[1] She was the third daughter of Hector De Claire --> we have to deal with the name issue right upfront. See MOS:NEE and as an example FA Barbara Bush
  • Just to confirm, I should be using "De Claire" before she changes the spelling of her surname? --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
    • Yes, that seems to be how the Barbara Bush article handles her Pierce name.
      • Ok, done. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
• There Voltairine grew up --> as per MOS:SURNAME and MOS:SAMESURNAME use surname and not Voltaire, unless it's necessary to disambiguate
  • I've mostly been using Voltairine in the early sections where she interacts with her family, as I thought "De Claire" would be too ambiguous in many cases. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
    • I think most of the time it is quite obvious: Voltairine's father can easily be De Claire's father, right?
      • That's fair, changed. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
• She also recalled that, unable to afford Christmas presents, the two sisters made gifts for their parents out of scraps.[7] --> too much detail, drop
  • Cut. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• he would regularly complain about her writing letters to him in pencil. --> although I like the idea of adding this detail, it only leaves me wondering why: did he want her to use a pen? was pencil to expensive? did he want her not to write letters at all? But since we should not increase word count further, I vote for dropping this
  • I'd have to look up the original letter for the reasoning. It seemed to be enough of a bug bear that he continued to complain about it into her adulthood. In any case, I've dropped this.
• Hippolyte Havel described --> he needs a bit of an intro, something along the lines of "Anarchist Hippolyte Havel described her earliest poems later
  • Done. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• "beautiful spirit." --> "beautiful spirit". as per MOS:INOROUT
  • Done. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Each Sunday, her father tried to cheer her up with visits to the local park or taking her on ferry boat rides, but her homesickness only got worse.[21] --> too much detail, drop
  • Dropped. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Within a few weeks of arriving at the convent, she attempted to escape, crossing the river back to Port Huron and immediately setting off to St. Johns. But after seventeen miles of walking, she realized she would never make it home and turned back. --> keep but shorten to something like: Within a few weeks of arriving at the convent, she escaped but returned back, realizing she would never make it to St. Johns.
  • Truncated. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• one letter from Adelaide was only released to her following her father's intervention --> drop
  • Dropped. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• When she wrote to her mother before her fourteenth birthday, she was clearly happier and was beginning to display her improving literary skills in her letters.[32] --> drop, the gist is covered by preceding and following sentence
  • Dropped. ---Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Weeks before she was due to graduate, she was already exhausted by her frequent punishment, as well as by a bout of catarrh. She was sent home to rest, but was warned by the nuns that she would remain under strict surveillance, which made her agitated and paranoid. After recovering, she returned to the convent. --> could easily be dropped
  • Dropped. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• for which she finally graduated --> do we need finally?
  • Dropped. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• a convinced freethinker --> de-link, was already linked before
  • De-linked. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• under the pen names --> why is this plural?
  • Fixed. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• seeing the "wonderful sweet things" of the world --> while it is nice to know she enjoyed the travel, I am left in this section with an unanswered key question: what were these lectures about? Is there anything more to say than the label freethinking?
  • Mostly about freethinking and secularist subjects, there's not much detail about the exact content. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• de Cleyre's conversion --> De Cleyre's conversion as per MOS:LCITEMS. Check rest of article for this as well
  • Capitalised all instances at beginnings of sentences. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• people that had defended --> people who had defended
  • Fixed. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• anarchists and regularly attended --> a comma is needed somewhere
  • Added comma after "anarchists". --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• some of the most powerful speeches of her career --> according to whom?
  • This is according to Paul Avrich. Dropped detail as it's probably not neutral enough. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• The affair deeply affected de Cleyre, who dedicated poems to people that had defended the Haymarket anarchists and regularly attended annual commemorations of the affair, where she delivered some of the most powerful speeches of her career. --> It seems to me this bit should come later. Now we're jumping around in time
  • Put "later" for now, until I can figure out a better placement. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• was really a possibility --> was really possibile
  • Truncated. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• until Lum's death --> in what year?
  • Added year of death. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• She paid for his medical education --> whoah! not toommany sentences ago she lived in poor conditions
  • This is just an aspect of her personality. She happily spent money on others and kept little for herself. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• first met Emma Goldman --> first met anarchist Emma Goldman
  • Introduced. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• an interpersonal feud --> a personal feud
  • Changed. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• They personally disliked each other's partners and insulted each other's looks, with de Cleyre thinking Goldman to be "dumpy and unattractive",[117] while Goldman could not understand why men found de Cleyre so attractive when she lived such an ascetic lifestyle. --> this could easily be dropped
  • Dropped. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• to an act of justice." --> to an act of justice".
  • Moved punctuation. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• In the early 1890s, --> a bit unfortunate that the start of the section is "By the turn of the century," Feels like we're jumping around for no good reason
  • Changed "by the turn of the century" to "By the end of the 19th century". --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• had previously funded his legal defense --> again mysterious given "sustained poverty" a bit earlier. Needs an explanation
  • That's my bad. She raised funds for him, she didn't provide the money herself. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• arguments with her partner increased --> sorry, I lost track who this is
  • Added "Gordon" in for clarity. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• arriving in Liverpool within a week and subsequently heading to London by train --> too much detail
  • Truncated. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• showed her all of London's tourist attractions --> too much detail
  • Dropped. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• She even traveled to visit Stonehenge, which she had wanted to see her whole life, and was mesmerized by the site and its surrounding countryside. --> --> too much detail
  • Truncated. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• On September 25, 1897 --> Just say September 1897
  • Done. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• on October 6 --> drop, too specific
  • Dropped. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• She was thrown a farewell party on her last night in London, after which she journeyed to Southampton and disembarked for her return to America. --> too much detail, just say she returned home
  • Dropped. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• prosecution of the war --> is that really the right word?
  • Changed to "involvement in the war". --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• which worsened her health --> drop, we just said so
  • Dropped. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• She was able to find a quiet farm --> I get the feeling again here that we are giving her every move, as if this is her full-blown bio. This section could be trimmed still further, especially the 2nd paragraph
  • Note to self: Take another look at this later. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  Trimmed section (diff). --Grnrchst (talk) 09:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• harassed their members --> mind WP:NPOV
  • Changed to "surveilled" --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• return home on January 2, 1903 --> as the 1st paragraph already mentions quick recovery, this feels repetitive, or perhaps the 1st paragraph line premature
  • Rewritten slightly. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• In the Norwegian capital of Christiania, she was shown the city's art galleries and local sights. She then traveled to Nes, where she spent five weeks hiking and enjoying the natural environment. She ended up being disappointed with Norway's "chilly" climate and people, and decided instead to visit Glasgow.[217] On August 18, she gave a public speech on anarchism at a meeting of the Norwegian Labour Party.[218] --> shorten significantly, we don't need a blow by blow account
  • Note to self: Take another look at this later. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  Trimmed paragraph on travels. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:01, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• where she was again stayed --> where she again stayed
  • Fixed. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• She then departed for Scotland and, on August 24, arrived in Glasgow, where she was again stayed with the Duffs and repeated her lecture of "Crime and Punishment".[219] On September 12, she again left Scotland and departed for London. She stayed with Harry Kelly at his house in Anerley, where she met the German anarchist Rudolf Rocker, a fellow Yiddish-speaking gentile.[220] On September 17, she repeated her lecture on "Crime and Punishment" at the South Place Institute.[221] --> shorten significantly
  • Note to self: Take another look at this later. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  Trimmed. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• its editor Alexander Berkman --> this paragraph can also easily be shortened, just give the key facts, fewer quotes
  • Note to self: Take another look at this later. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  Trimmed. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:04, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Phew. Taking a break. More later. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:23, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• Thank you for these comments! They were very helpful and I look forward to improving the article further. I think I've addressed everything except some of the later trimming requests, which I'll take another look at in a couple days. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
  • I have commented in-line above to a few open points. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:47, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

    @Edwininlondon: Finished the trimming requests (diffs), let me know if there's more that could be done. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:05, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Onwards, we go:

• From Buffalo, she moved --> this paragraph can probably be cut by at least a third
• the McNamaras --> they need some sort of intro e.g. bombing suspects
  • Introduced. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
• From an early age, Voltairine de Cleyre despised --> de Cleyre despised
  • Done. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
• instead upholding a peaceful approach to anarchism --> well, this summary should mention what was earlier given as "as she increasingly began to accept violent methods such as propaganda of the deed."
• and the establishment of women's self-determination --> maybe help the reader a bit disambiguating: and for the establishment of women's self-determination
  • Done. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
• de Cleyre was a staunch --> De Cleyre was a staunch
  • Done. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
• with the revolt of a flaming ideal." --> MOS:INOROUT Also check the other quotes here
  • Fixed all remaining cases. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
• It may be good to use this article from the Library of Congress, as there is heavy reliance on Avrich 1978 at the moment. The more other refs the better.
  • I can have a look around for other sources, but Avrich 1978 is invariably going to be the most cited, because this is the only book-length biography on her. I'm sceptical about using the Library of Congress blog post, as it cites this Wikipedia article and was published after I'd already written most of the article. (It even appears to have copied a couple sentences from the final paragraph of the "Final years and death" section word-for-word, using exact phrases that I wrote and were phrased differently by Avrich) So in adding that I'd be concerned about introducing citogenesis. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Ah, sorry about that, I hadn't even looked at it, just assumed a certain quality from that source. Definitely not use that indeed. Edwininlondon (talk) 16:33, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I shall look at the sources next. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:47, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources:

• Golder, Lauren J. (2023) seems unused, which is a pitty
• Presley, Sharon (2005b) also unused
• Sartwell, Crispin (2005c) also unused

Did a few spotchecks, which all checked out and no sign of copy pasting. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:42, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Cited Presley 2005b and moved the other two to a further reading section. Unfortunately I don't have access to Golder 2023, so wasn't able to use it when writing the article. I also left Sartwell 2005c uncited, because it doesn't really say much about de Cleyre herself, it's more about the artistic movement she was a part of. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)